Podcast 10 - MRI May Not Help

Transcription

Dr. Chad: This is Dr. Chad Edwards and you are listening to Podcast number 10 on Against the Grain.

 

Marshall: Welcome to Against the Grain Podcast with Dr. Chad Edwards, where challenges to status quo when it comes to Medicine. We get in to hot topics in the medical field with real stories from real patients to help you on your way to a healthy lifestyle. Get ready, because were about to go Against the Grain.

 

Bryan: This is Bryan Wilks here, with the Dr. Dr. Chad Edwards.

 

Dr. Chad: Good afternoon Bryan, how are you today?

 

Bryan: Good to see your beautiful face again.

 

Dr. Chad: It’s good to be seen.

 

Bryan: It’s good that neither one of us can be seen.

 

Dr. Chad: [Laughs] that’s probably true.

 

Bryan: I’m in shorts, oddly shaved, facial hair. And you seem clean cut today, though. You seem like you’re on your A-game.

 

Dr. Chad: I try to-

 

Bryan: Wow.

 

Dr. Chad: -at least act professional.

 

Bryan: You look like Doctor, you really do.

 

Dr. Chad: I play one on TV.

 

Bryan: Hey, think like a proton and stay positive, big guy, okay? This whole show, I need your A-game today. ‘Cause we got a big issue, right?

 

Dr. Chad: That’s the cheesiest thing I’ve ever heard all day.

 

Bryan: [Laughs] Love it. I love it. Alright so let’s talk about our sponsors here, who are probably going to drop us right after the show.

 

Dr. Chad: [Laughs] Revolution Health and Wellness Clinic. One of our big focuses is on bioidentical hormones, helping people feel their best, regardless of the source, we want to dig down and find out why you feel bad, addressing your musculoskeletal pains, so knee pain, back pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, all of those things; sports injuries with Prolotherapy, PRP and Stem Cell Therapies. Give us a call at 918-935-3636, or you can visit us on our website at revolutionhealth.org.

 

Bryan: Alright. Upper Cervical Health Center is not your typical Chiropractic office, different in that they never jerk, twist, snap or crack your spine. They offer a general approach to address your health issues naturally. Their patients report an overall improvement, not just with their spines and 75% of their health. You can call them at 918-742-2300, or visit their website at www.uppercervicaltulsa.com/newyou.

 

Dr. Chad: They’re awesome.

 

Bryan: Yes. Dr. Chad, how many MRI’s have you had in your life?

 

Dr. Chad: I’ve had one actually.

 

Bryan: Really?

 

Dr. Chad: Yes.

 

Bryan: Was it during your services-

 

Dr. Chad: It was.

 

Bryan: -okay.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes. And, that you know in the military sometimes we do kind of this Executive Medicine thing ‘cause were taking care of our assets.

 

Bryan: Right.

 

Dr. Chad: Ah so, you know were-

 

Bryan: Taking care of your assets. Is that what you said?

 

Dr. Chad: Yes, taking care of our assets-

 

Bryan: Okay. Okay.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes, that’s what I said.

 

Bryan: Alright, that’s what I though you said

 

Dr. Chad: Sometimes, you have to, you know, know what it is that you’re dealing with. Can this person deploy, do they have an issue that’s going to be covered by health insurance, or are you going to be covering that issue as if a disability kind of issue. Sometimes we get a little more MRI’s than we normally would, and because, to answer some of those issues. So, I actually had one because of some foot pain that I got when I was deployed in Iraq, and I was running on gravel a lot at the time. And they said I actually broke a sesamoid bone in my left foot, a little bitty bone. And interestingly, I never took more than a week off running, so I didn’t really know how I did that. But, got an MRI, and they said yes, that’s in two different spots, and then Iwent back and looked at an old X-ray that I had from the early 1990’s, and found out that that bone was like that way back then.

 

Bryan: Alright. I’ve had one MRI that discovered I had no brain. I was surprised [laughs].

 

Dr. Chad: That’s not surprising Bryan, I didn’t need an MRI for that one.

 

Bryan: There’s that, but hey, the truth of the matter is, it seems like doctors are MRI happy. They love the old MRI. The question is, is it a great tool or not.

 

Dr. Chad: Well, I would say that it can be a great tool, but I would say that getting MRI’s is kind of like picking your nose in public.

 

Bryan: Ooh, I like that analogy, yes.

 

Dr. Chad: What are you going to do with the results?

 

Bryan: Yeah [laughs].That’s disgusting.

 

Dr. Chad: You know.

 

Bryan: You know the thing about Doctors as far as when they do the show, the Doctor, the things they talk about.

 

Dr. Chad: Hey, you said that Doctors couldn’t be funny, and I said, challenge accepted, so-

 

Bryan: Not on this podcasts, we’re going to edit that out.

 

Dr. Chad: No. that was success.

 

Bryan: ‘Cause, it’s not a fact, right? And so were only about facts here on the show, right? So let’s talk about some facts.

 

Dr. Chad: Let’s do.

 

Bryan: Is an MRIactually a road map for surgery? So, it seems to me, at least for outsiders again, I’m just a business guy, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Yes.

 

Bryan: And the only thing necessarily to any degree about the Medical industry, it seems like to me, you got something wrong, especially like you know, you talked about a foot injury with a little bone, or whatever the case is, the path is, you get MRI, then you get surgery, and then you’re good, right?

 

Dr. Chad: That’s the hope.

 

Bryan: That’s the roadmap, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right, so-

 

Bryan: So talk about that.

 

Dr. Chad: You know, so basically I’m a primary care Physician, Board Certified in Family Medicine. When I went through my residency, of course I was dealing with a lot of athletes, athletic trainer in College, I was in special operations for several years, and these guys are like Olympic level athletes, in the special operations realm. And, they would have when I was in residency, I was preparing to go out and do some of those things, and I wanted, I knew, that musculoskeletal conditions were going to be way up on what I was going to see a lot. I wanted to get some extra training in that so that I could be competent and confident that I could take care of their issue

 

Bryan: Man, you are just rolling out the big words today

 

Dr. Chad: You like that?

 

Bryan: Wow.

 

Dr. Chad: Well, I slept in a Holiday InnExpress last night.

 

Bryan: Right, this guy is going to Doctor it up, the whole show. I like it. Bringing your A game, I told you. Bring it. Let’s do it.

 

Dr. Chad: Challenge accepted.

 

Bryan: Challenge accepted-

 

Dr. Chad: So, I did some extra Orthopedics rotations. My thought process was Iwant to spend more time with the Orthopedic Surgeon because I saw them as the pinnacle of understanding musculoskeletal conditions. Now, not to disrespect any of them,‘causeI’ve got some fantastic friends that are Orthopedic Surgeons. But, what I found is that their emphasis was on identifying if there was a surgical issue or not. They did not do the clinical stuff, the outpatient stuff, the non-surgical stuff. They would look at it, see if it was surgery-related and this may have to do with the fact that it was military. I don’t know that. But we had what we called Ortho PA’s, Orthopedic Physician Assistants. And they were the ones that ran the clinics. And what I discovered is that I wanted to spend all my time with those guys. Because I’m not an Orthopedic Surgeon, I wasn’t going to go do Orthopedic surgery and knee replacements and hip replacements and all these things.

 

So, it didn’t make sense that I learned how to do those things. You know if somebody needs that, I need to appropriately funnel them to those guys, so that they can get them fixed in the most appropriate way. But what I wanted was the clinical stuff. And then, as I spent time with them, there were some, you know, you do like ValgusStress Testing it’s a, you angle the knee and all these ligaments intact. We did that as athletic trainers in College. And we can pick some things up with that. But, patients would come in, they’ve got an injury, they’ve got pain, whatever it is, and they’ll say, something’s wrong with me, I need to get this fixed. And, so I, as a primary care doc, depending on my training, on what level of athletic mentality, or athletic training that I’ve had, or evaluating in the sports medicine realm, will kind of dictate the path that patient goes on, if I don’t spend much time with the patient don’t do a thorough physical exam.

 

Then, I can’t even do a thorough physical exam. I don’t really know but this sounds like runner’s knee, sounds like a torn ACL, sounds like blah blah blah blah blah. Let’s get an MRI to be sure. We’ll get an MRI and depending on the findings of, yes sure enough, there’s something torn in there, we’re going to send you to an orthopedic surgeon, and let’s get surgery and get that fixed. And so, you’re right, that’s exactly the pipeline that we’re talking about. Now, if the patient and I remember having this issue. Apatient came to me and said, I’ve got X condition, I can’t remember what his particular condition was, but I said, I think it was lower back, and I said, do you want an MRI? And he said, yeah I do, and I said, okay. If we find something abnormal, when, in your schedule, can we fix it with surgery? He is like, “I don’t want surgery!” I was like, “so, there’s no way you would consider surgery?”

 

He said, “no way.” I was like, “then why are we getting an MRI?” Because, from a nonsurgical perspective; it’s not going to change my management. He didn’t have a clinical symptom that made me think he needed surgery immediately. Like this was a surgical emergency. And so even with like a torn ACL, that you don’t have to do surgery on that emergently. In fact most of the time they’ll let the swelling calm down anyway. So why? I mean, if you just want to know, okay that’s one thing. But insurance doesn’t often cover, “cause I just want to know.”

 

Bryan: It’s not a line.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes, that’s right.

 

Bryan: It is, but it’s rejected 100% of the time.

 

Dr. Chad: Right, exactly. Now in the military, we often got those, because you know, if that’s a torn ACL, torn whatever, then we need to know that, ‘cause you may not be able to deploy him, he may not be able to do his job, you know those kinds of things. So, it led me off on this quest to better understand MRI and when should I best utilize them. And, you know, who should I get them on. Now, of course we’ve talked about Prolotherapy before.

 

Bryan: Sure.

 

Dr. Chad: And, Prolotherapy changed the whole game for me. I mean, it literally changed my entire approach to musculoskeletal medicine. Because, ligaments and tendons,  are a common source for a lot of musculoskeletalpain. And, MRI isn’t going to detect the cause of their pain. The other thing that Prolotherapy has changed for me, is there is Lidocaine in the solution, so if you come in and you say I hurt in point A, and then on my exam I find that it’s actually point B, then I go to inject there

 

A lot of times patients feel like, uh, “but I don’t hurt there, I hurt over here.” Then we do that and sometimes, you know, a common one would be pain rate going down my arm. Like into my bicep. And down this way. Well that’s often biceps tendonitis, and I can inject that. And, the pain,  because that Lidocaine goes away pretty much immediately. And, so then I can directly correlate their symptoms with the location of the problem, because of that Lidocaine, it numbs up that spot. If I do one injection and numb it up, and their symptoms go away, it pretty much has to be that spot. And if they’re hurting from somewhere else and I inject that spot, then it doesn’t impact that pain.

 

So, Prolotherapy really changed my whole thought process on this whole thing. So, I was getting patients that were coming in with a variety of conditions. They would say, I’ve got an MRI that shows I got a torn meniscus, or shows I’ve got a torn ACL, or torn MCL, or torn fill in the blanks. And they’re recommended surgery. So, I was like, yes, but I just don’t see that much of this. Let’s do Prolotherapy and let’s see what we get. We did Prolotherapy and they get better. And so, I started doing some research. And, I found out that MRI wasn’t at all what I thought it was.

 

So, just brief intro to MRI. It’s, Magnetic Resonance Imagery, or Imaging. And basically you got a very strong magnet that causes the Hydrogen ions to spin or to vibrate. And, they vibrate at different frequencies, and so the computer can put all that together and you determine these different densities, and you get a three dimensional picture of the structures. Now, an MRI is extremely sensitive, meaning that it will pick up any little thing. So, the sensitivity of the MRI is very very good but it doesn’t, it’s not specific. In other words, it will detect everything; it won’t tell me if that’s exactly why you hurt.

 

And that’s the crux of my issue. Get MRI’s on low backs, and you see these herniated discs, you see all these stuff. But, their clinical symptoms are not consistent with that. So, let’s talk about some of the literature that’s out there. So the first one, is a study that was done by Boos, B-O-O-S, not B-O-O-Z-E. This was published in 1995. He did a study of 96 patients that had absolutely no back pain, and absolutely no history of injury.

 

 

Bryan:  Right.

 

Dr. Chad: And he ran all 96 patients through MRI. No pain, no previous injury. 76% of those normal, healthy, asymptomatic patients, 76% of them had disc herniation on their MRI. 17% had minor nerve root compression. 4% had major nerve root compression, like this is a big deal, we’re going to need to intervene. 85% had degenerative disc disease. I get patients that come in to my clinic and they say “On my MRI, I’ve got this degenerative disc disease. Holy cow, what am I going to do about this?” Well, nothing because of the 96 people had, or 85% of that people had it and they had no symptoms. So why? Why do you care? And then 13% had what was called a disc extrusion, that’s basically the disc has blown up and chunks of that disc are floating around in the spinal canal. And these, oh I’m sorry, the disc, the jelly is leaking out, you know if you squeeze a jelly doughnut. All I can think about is Private Pyle, “a jelly doughnut”.

 

Bryan: There you go again, doctor humor.

 

Dr. Chad: Exactly.

 

Bryan: My dad was a Minister. I’m used to, like minister humor. And doctor humor kind of all falls in the same category.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes?

 

Bryan: Yes, we’ll talk about it later. I don’t want to offend you on the show.

 

Dr. Chad: [laughs] You’ll offend me later.

 

Bryan: I’ll offend you later.

 

Dr. Chad: Alright. So, anyway, there’s a lot of abnormal findings, and some of them can be severe on patients with no problems.

 

Bryan: Well, it’s interesting to me is again, a common listener here, is how highly sensitive they are. I didn’t know how sensitive it was and it can pick every up little thing-

 

Dr. Chad: Yes.

 

Bryan: Which is not necessarily-

 

Dr. Chad: Exactly.

 

Bryan: -diagnostic tool to say that there is always cause and effect, causality. I got a question, Marshall. He is our technical guy here. He’s an athlete, you can tell. Looks like a white Michael Jordan. He’s name is Marshall Mathers, which is Eminem, he’s our Tech guy here. So, Marshall, seriously, have you had an MRI?

 

Marshall: I’ve never had an MRI.

 

Bryan: In all your years of Professional basketball?

 

Marshall: In all my years of Professional basketball, still no MRI.

 

Bryan: Right. I actually, as handsome and as athletic as you look, I actually was an athlete. Right, Chad will tell you.

 

Dr. Chad: He ran track.

 

Bryan: Some people say, that I was okay at track. I wouldn’t be one of those people.

 

Dr. Chad: I think one of your records still stands.

 

Bryan: Many Chad, many. I don’t think it hasn’t even been to trackville.

 

Dr. Chad: When you were saying many, are you referring to the size or are you referring to the number?

 

Bryan: [laughs] It’s either. There’s that. But I have had MRI’s. And in my experience, the MRI was somewhat inconclusive in determining my result, or origin of pain. Specifically, to your point, when it’s muscular in nature. And, I ripped my Quadricep, for example, I was a sprinter. And I got an MRI, and originally, they had thought it probably was some structural problem that had caused stress on the actual tendon, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: And they never could find a solution. And they didn’t really ask a whole lot of questions, they just said, “We’ll give you a shot on your leg boy, and get back on that track.” You know, this isn’t the ’90s, where Marshall was born.

 

Dr. Chad: [laughs]

 

Bryan: But I’ve never had personally great experience as an athlete with MRI’s. I mean personally.

 

Dr. Chad: Right, I’m going to read this real quick. This was a paper from the New York Times that was published in 2011. And they said that talking about MRI, they said it’s a very sensitive tool but it is not very specific. That’s the problem. And scans almost always find something abnormal although most abnormalities are of no consequence. “It’s very rare for an MRI to come back with the words Normal Study,” said Dr. Christopher DiGiovanni, a Professor of Orthopedics and Sports Medicine Specialist at Brown University. I can’t tell you the last time I’ve seen it.

 

Bryan: Wow.

 

Dr. Chad: “And when I look at MRI results, I do not get them to say Normal Study. I do on CT’s, you don’t on MRI’s. I’ve never seen it.

 

Bryan:  It’s interesting. I think, it’s contrary to what most people would believe about MRI’s.

 

Dr. Chad: And you know what, if you talk to a Radiologist, all they’re doing is describing what they see. They’re not making a diagnosis.

 

Bryan: We’ve all been there. What are you looking at on the screen?

 

Dr. Chad: Exactly. They’re just describing it.

 

Bryan: They’re describing it. They’re storytellers.

 

Dr. Chad: That’s exactly right.

 

Bryan: It’s like observing a car wreck. I saw a car wreck. Whose fault was that, I have no idea. This is what I saw.

 

Dr. Chad: So the problem is not with the Radiologist. Cause they’re doing exactly what they’re supposed to do. The problem is in us interpreting the Radiologist’s read. Or even, some Physician’s will interpret their own MRI’s. Orthopedic Surgeons, they definitely do. And they may talk about it with the Radiologist. So, if all you’re doing is reading this report, then it’s our responsibility to interpret that report appropriately, and how does this correlate with the patient. When I was seeing a lot of my patients with this low back pain, I would look at the results and they would say, you’ve got a herniated disc at the L4, L5 junction-

 

Bryan: Lumbars.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes, sorry. With a minor or moderate or severe nerve root compression, but yet on a physical exam, they’ve got none of those findings. It’s something very different. Or it’s on the complete opposite side. That’s not the problem. They may have that, but that’s not why they hurt.  And I believe that’s one of the reasons that surgery for low back in certain circumstances had such a poor track record. I think that’s why low back pain in general can be very difficult to deal with, but yet, with Prolotherapy it’s very straightforward and we can help a lot of those patients.

 

Bryan: Well, let’s just say this. Let’s just weigh the options here. For me, if I have let’s say, lower back pain, and I’m looking at the options of surgery. Which we’ve already said, most surgeries– most MRI’s are precluded by surgery. Right, so MRI, surgery, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: So, you mess up on a surgery, it’s a surgery. I mean, there’s a risk of death during the surgery. There’s a risk of infection during the surgery. There’s loss of time in recovery time. Let’s say it doesn’t work, that’s a pretty steep price to pay, right

 

Dr. Chad: Oh, no question.

 

Bryan: Yes, So, let’s say we do Prolotherapy, which is a liquid, injected in to a spot. It’s as simple as I can put it, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: That has a high rate of alleviating pain in certain situations in the joints, in that nature. So even if it doesn’t work, there’s not a high risk.

 

Dr. Chad: Right. The former Surgeon General of the United States said the nice thing about Prolotherapy appropriately done is that it cannot do any harm.

 

Bryan: Correct. Yes.

 

Dr. Chad: The lead Physician in the country.

 

Bryan: So, the problem is, again, this is definitely against the grain, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

.Marshall: Against the Grain.

 

Bryan: That’s awesome. This is definitely Against the Grain. The problem is most people believe and most doctors believe getting an MRI, they’re not conclusive. Based on those findings that are inconclusive, get yourself a surgery. It may not work. [laughs]

 

Dr. Chad: I think you said that very well.

 

Bryan: Right.

 

Dr. Chad: I want to drive two more points home, talk about two more studies that address this issue. Article in the American Family Physician, AFP 2012 on knee pain.

 

Bryan: This is better than the boos stat reference.

 

Dr. Chad: You like that?

 

Bryan: Who’s going to bring– what doctor is going to bring a reference from boos? It seems contrary.

 

Dr. Chad: I don’t make up the name, Brian.

 

Bryan: Or what medical place is going to be named boos?

 

Dr. Chad: It’s just a scientific fact.

 

Bryan: That’s right.

 

Dr. Chad: If that is a scientific fact.

 

Bryan: Good one, Chad. I like it.

 

Dr. Chad: Right? I’m trying.

 

Bryan: Dr. Chad.

 

Dr. Chad: Yes, that was challenge accepted. Okay. I don’t know. Read this straight from that article. Several studies have shown MRI may identify signal changes that suggest a meniscal tear, so talking about the knee, when the meniscus is not actually torn. Other studies have shown that even a meniscal tear is detected, it may not be related to the presenting problem or the presenting symptoms. Research suggests that a fairly high percentage of arthroscopic procedures may be performed based on abnormal MRI findings instead of clinical findings. I think they summed that up very well.

 

Another– again, from that New York Times paper in 2011, they took pictures, I don’t remember the number of them but it says in the paper that these pictures, no injury, no pain. MRIs performed on all of them found shoulder, cartilage, abnormal in 90% of them and abnormal rotator cuff tendons in 87%. The quote from the orthopedic surgeon that wrote this report said, “If you want an excuse to operate on the picture’s throwing shoulder, just get an MRI.”

 

Bryan: Wow. This is what I love about this show. Who in their right mind would take on MRIs and surgery, but this guy, Dr. Chad Edwards? [laughs]

 

Dr. Chad: I just want to do the best I can for the patients. Let them get educated, if surgery is the best course of therapy, then by all means let’s do that. You want to find the best orthopedic surgeon you can to do it. I’m not anti that therapy, but we just have such a low threshold, forget an MRI and go get surgery. We got to break that paradigm.

 

Bryan: I think it’s interesting if you — I could google it, but I’m not going to because we can just talk about it. As what I think would be a matter of fact, if you’re looking back through medicines, so many interesting things that were once thought true that now we would always — that now all of us would say, “Obviously, it’s not true.” I think of a couple.

 

I remember reading articles about blood transfusions in the 1910s or ‘20s right? Where they would literally either take out all of your blood, siph it directly back into you or they would put leeches on you to try to cure you of diseases. What other weird things have we thought in medicine?

 

Dr. Chad: Believe me, well, not necessarily in medicine, but you mean like the world was flat?

 

Bryan: [laughs] Yes, the world was flat. Right?

 

[laughter]

 

Bryan:Those kind of things, but then medicine is one of those areas that it needs to be constantly challenged even in areas like MRI and surgery.

 

Dr. Chad: That’s right. One that we’ll talk about, cholesterol.

 

Bryan: Cholesterol’s a good one, right?

 

Dr. Chad: [laughs] That is a really gone one.

 

Bryan: I think that one is really making some progress in mainstream because I think people used to think, “I have a cholesterol problem if I have a total cholesterol level of x.” Now they’re finding that there’s a balance of cholesterol and it’s broader than that. Right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: So, that’s one. Name another one that in your medical career– over the span of your career that is once a time when you first started, maybe was generally accepted, now, it’s, “Okay. We don’t accept it.” Would it be cholesterol?

 

Dr. Chad: Well, there was one that comes to mind is that for acute high blood pressure, when someone in came in and their blood pressure was through the roof, we used to give Propranolol. And we take a little capsule and put it on their tongue, we actually found out that that causes harm. The Women’s Health, good grief, what’s in that study? It’s on hormone replacement where the people there’s-

 

Bryan: Boos study?

 

Dr. Chad: No. It’s published in 2002 I believe. Talking about hormone replacement therapy for women and how it was protective of cardiovascular disease. They actually stopped the study early because they found out that it was actually causing cardiovascular disease. They stopped it early because there was so much harm that they couldn’t continue the study. We see stuff like that all the time.

 

Bryan: Wow.

 

Dr. Chad: Prior to that, we thought that hormone replacement therapy was actually protective. There’s some nonsense out there about red meat and cancer. The World Health Organization recently declared it a class one or a group one, whatever carcinogen on the same level as tobacco based on zero sound scientific evidence. They’re basing it off of some very poor epidemiologic associations that are uncontrolled with other risk factors. Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

Bryan: Right. I think about a one big one because I want to talk about this only because when you do a show that says, “Hey, I’m challenging MRIs and surgery.” That’s a fairly big claim, right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: That’s a fairly big claim, I was watching the show, Concussion. I don’t know if you’ve seen it with Will Smith. Marshall, you know what I’m talking about?

 

Marshall: Yes.

 

Bryan: The Innerfell?

 

Bryan: Yes. I’m watching the show and the basic gist of it is and I think it’s perfect discussion around what we’re talking about right now. It’s for years and years and years, DFL has denied proof of concussions. Football causes concussions. This movie is based on a true story about I think it’s a Nigerian doctor that– working in the United States did an autopsy on football players and found that there was a disproportionately high number that had brain injuries, life-threatening brain injuries, distort their personalities. It’s interesting in the movie how the medical industry flat out denied it in the beginning not because that there was an inconclusive proof because as we know now, there was. Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

It was because there is an establishment in for an example, there is a large number of people– I’m sorry, there are probably a few number of people that make a lot of money on MRIs [laughs]. People need to understand that. They have agendas and they have profits. They have probably some evidence that they like to claim that probably is true but it’s not true. It’s not the best in, It’s not the best for– The consumer needs to educate themselves. Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

Dr. Chad: Let’s be clear– I want to be very clear about this. If anyone, the physician included, if the physician is benefitting at the patient’s benefit, I’m all for it. If the physician is benefitting at the expense of the patient, they should be shamed.

 

Bryan: Right. That’s great. That’s a great quote. Our system isn’t set up in such a way and I think the NFL is a great example of that, a great case study on it. Not just because it’s popular doesn’t mean it’s regulated the way it should be. I think I take away from today’s show as I do every show, I’m so proud of you. I really am for having the courage to come on a show like this and tell the truth. Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

Dr. Chad: Well, thank you. I got to sleep at night and the only way I can do it is to be the best I can to make sure that we’re doing the best we can for the biggest number of people.

 

Bryan: Yes, I like to pick on you because you are smart and you are successful. Right?

 

Dr. Chad: [laughs]

 

Bryan: You need to be humbled. Right?

 

Dr. Chad: Thanks Bryan. I appreciate that.

 

Bryan: The thing I like most about you is you’ve dedicated your life to people. Right? I really think you’ve– It can’t be just about your practice and the amount of money you make, I think this show is all about purpose. Right? The show, I heard someone once say, “There’s a difference between purpose and success.” Right? Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: I believe you’re living out your purpose and that is to help people recognize that these simple things in medicine like MRIs and surgeries aren’t the only option for them. I think that’s what you do well.

 

Dr. Chad: Zig Ziglar said, “If you help enough other people get what they want, you’ll get what you want.”

 

Bryan: I just said that the other day and you ripped it off. I said that to you and you used it on the show. There should be some regulation on the show.

 

Dr. Chad:You think?

 

Bryan: Right. There should be regulation on the show.

 

Dr. Chad: I should be fined.

 

Bryan: But I do want listeners to know, the fact of the show is it’s not regulated.

 

[laughter]

 

Bryan:That is the truth. We’re just two average schmooze here, happened to be highly educated. Right? Which is a surprise to most people.

 

Dr. Chad: Well, if we have degrees.

 

Bryan: We have degrees. Yes, I wouldn’t call that education. That’s a great point by the way. Well, maybe we’ll have a show about that.

 

Dr. Chad: There you go.

 

Bryan: The little we actually learned. Right? I do think listeners need to understand that this is a show that’s very organic, very much intended to help people. Profit is not the center.

 

Dr. Chad: That’s right.

 

Bryan:I think we’ve-

 

Dr. Chad:I haven’t got the paycheck for this.

 

[laughter]

 

Bryan: I definitely have and that’s — I feel I’m bringing so much to this show, alright, I should at least get, couple thousand dollars an episode.

 

Dr. Chad: I thought you were just getting to hang out with me, that was your payment.

 

Bryan:Right, I met with dynasty a couple weeks ago, I really did right?

 

Dr. Chad: Right.

 

Bryan: And, so they get paid for their shows. I found that out when I was there. I’m like “this is new to me.”

 

Dr. Chad: I believe they get paid well.

 

Bryan: Yes. That’s what they were saying. That’s what somebody else told me. It’s kind of a joke, I’m just saying you should consider that, payment. Then that would take away purpose right?

 

Dr. Chad: No.

 

Bryan: That would take away the purpose no? No, it wouldn’t?

 

Dr. Chad: No.

 

Bryan: We’re getting so sidetracked on this show and people just turned it off.

 

[laughter]

 

Bryan: But, I do want people to know this, stay tuned because if you believe in purpose and medicine. If you believe that they somehow connect, I encourage you to stick with Dr. Chad Edwards and this show and we appreciate you listen, we’ll see you next time. Tulsa Prolotherapy

 

Dr. Chad: Thanks Bryan.

 

Marshall: Thanks for listening to this week’s podcast with Dr. Chad Edwards. Tune in next week where we’ll be going, Against the Grain.

 

[00:31:00] [END OF AUDIO]